Sexuality and Pole Dancing
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Polegrrrrl - I am soooo jealous!!! Would love to have a class in Bobbi's!! Oh the Felixes and Allegras!
Polergrrrl, I agree with Deetron...sooo jealous! I'd love to have a studio that was so in-depth! And I understand your difficulty with the shoes...I don't wear mine often, and when I do, I almost fall at least twice, pole or not! It's kinda scary! I'm trying to get some shoes (tomorrow! 😀 ) that have a bit better ankle strap, so that at least I know they fit, and stay on properly. 🥂
Hi! I'm not sure whether it was my statements found objectionable or someone else's, but I did want to clarify a little bit. I hope that when I mentioned shoes earlier, you didn't hear me say "Kim and Barbara are superior pole dancers because they are not 6-inch platform-wearing whores." That is not even close to what I meant to imply. I do, however, appreciate that they did something different than the majority of their contemporaries when in performance. I like when people aren't the same as everyone else. I don't hate shoes, I just don't think they should have to be standard or expected as they really seem to be. But having said that, I don't wear shoes that have a heel; I'm sure that if there is ever a recognised venue for male pole dance performance or competition, I'll be exempted from the platform heel standard. Regardless, I have a slightly non-conformist type of personality so I notice and respect when someone defies a standard. I wasn't at world last year, but as far as I can tell Amy Impey was the only competitor who wasn't in shoes. I noticed and appreciated it because it was different from the standard, not because I thought it made her less stripper-like. Remember, I have respect for strippers. But speaking just for myself as a non-conformist, the more sexually I see others behave, or the more sexuality is expected of me, the more frigid I'm likely to become. There is an energetic and radical rebel in me that just wants to do the opposite of what is standard. But the pole dancers I respect the most are the ones who can pull off a very wide variety of feelings through a performance, instead of just sexual ones. And I do think there are standards of tastefulness to consider as well. There are very popular pole dancers who perform very strong, super-advanced moves with extraordinary precision, but the bits of themselves that they put on display with some of their dance moves still leaves me wishing they would just stop. This can be true of male performers too. There's a guy on YouTube that has a lot of really good pole moves, but his dancing, to me, is in rather bad taste. But this fellow is honest and honorable to state openly that his performance is "stripper style." Sexuality doesn't have to mean giving it all away. If you were to look at some really old movies, you probably wouldn't find a lot of overt sex scenes. But you might see a couple going to a different room and closing the door, and you know what they're doing. I don't consider myself old-fashioned at all, but as creative people involved in a creative performing medium I think we should be willing to develop enough artistic skill to generate some kind of feeling in the observer, whether that is a sexual feeling or some other kind, without putting it in black and white. And by confining our performances to being a form of erotic expression, we are only limiting ourselves as artists and denying ourselves of some of the healing and cathartic power that all of the arts have when we give them a chance to work their magic on and through us. I don't have a problem with sexual dancing. I dance sexually sometimes. But I have a problem with it being expected. And I don't, per se, have a problem with it being so constant in pole, but I think its consistency fuels the ongoing expectation. And the expectation imbues in budding pole dancers a belief that sexual movement is part of the industry standard. Thus a kind of vicious cycle is formed, the result of which is that we continue to have to "justify" pole dancing as not being stripping. Unfortunately, that "justification" ends up resulting in an inadvertent expression of disrespect for strippers and exotic dancers, the more adamant about explaining the difference any of us become. With that said, there is a kind of honor code among exotic dancers, even in the all nude clubs. The dancers who touch their private bits or let the patrons touch them anywhere are not respected by the other dancers at that club. It is generally assumed that the dancers who do are doubling as prostitutes. Mind you, I personally don't think that prostitution is objectionable either, and I believe that prostitutes deserve respect too. I'd just keep it out of the club though, because it changes the environment and the expectations of the patrons on the other dancers who are not taking side-jobs. Last, I have to wonder sometimes, who are we trying to turn on? Most of the "whoos" you hear when a pole performer starts doing sexy floor dancing are straight females cheering for straight females. I believe that the most common type of pole dance enthusiast is the suburban housewife. And from what I can tell, most formal pole dance performances and competitions are primarily attended by other straight female pole dancers. Does it really serve anyone to go before an audience of unsuited and probably unavailable persons and act like we want to excite them sexually? And are we, as an audience, really doing this art and its highest calibre vanguards any service by encouraging them to use the same sexual dance style they use all the time? It's nice to encourage our friends, of course. But maybe we could encourage them to do something cool instead. Perhaps we can encourage them to break out of their comfort zones, which primarily contain average, common strip-club moves and facial expressions to match. Leading with the butt, in my opinion, is not the most endearing way to engage an audience, but that's just my feeling. I'm sure there are some audience members who would enjoy being approached butt-first by the performers. But still. Heterosexual women being sexy for each other and pretending to be excited about it makes me giggle a little. I don't think its wrong to use pole dancing as one of the mediums to act out some of our own sexual fantasies, or to act out fantasies of our sexual identities and who we might aspire to become. Any artistic or performing medium can be used for this purpose. But I think it is helpful to be aware of ourselves doing so while its happening. Damn, PoleGrrrrl! How did you get to Sydney? I thought you were around UK somewhere. I wish I could take classes at Bobbi's too, as long as I wouldn't have to wear pleasers with the rest of you! What a funny irony, though, that you were winning competitions before you studied there. Most people go to Bobbi's studio and then become champions after. I can't wait to see your next recording after you've been training at Bobbi's. Share everything you learn! I'm really happy for you!
I go into a whole different part of my mind when I'm on the pole, or when I'm dancing anywhere, to anything. I touch myself. I swivel, and maybe grind, and roll my body...whatever the music seems to want. I like to think I am sexy, but that's so subjective. Let's just say I don't necessarily strive for sexy but I hope it finds me, lol. But I see some women (and men) dancing and am just in awe of their strength and playfulness; I have a deep respect for that, too.
Wow. I'm so impressed and proud of everyone. LOVE this community! Thank you Veena!!
shit! sign me up for this movement right away! 🫡
Mm! I'm..not REALLY responding to you, David. I just want to throw around a few opinions since encouraging women to do sexy things is kind of my forte. Your reply made me think long and hard on the subject! Rest assured that I completely respect your opinion, and ... just feel like expanding mine! I'm.. somewhat straight- in that I can look at a great deal of things and find them -incredibly- attractive, so long as you don't ask me to lick them. So... I kind of fit the suburban housewife who loves pole dancing standard. I get INCREDIBLY excited about a sexy performance by one of us here... for the same reason why I'm excited about someone achieving their first handspring. Sexual strength, sexual prowess is just important as your physical strength and physical prowess... to me, of course! Hehehe. (The theme of this thread, "My opinion" "To me" "Means to me") I know sometimes women get so tied up in life and bull that we forget that one of our strengths is our ability to make the others weak in the knees. Sure, we can work and not have kids and do whatever we want- but there was a time where our meal ticket was assured through the birth canal, one way or the other. Now that we work, and we don't have to have kids, and we're not completely limited by our organset... we don't practice that art that got us by for SO LONG. So it's kind of like knitting, sewing, cooking, gardening, carpentry. You aren't required to do it, but practicing it is admirable! It's useful. Useful whether you decide to use it or not. Knowing I can cook doesn't stop me from eating out.. knowing I can hook doesn't stop me from getting a job. LOL. I don't have to flaunt my sex any more than I have to lift a refrigerator, but knowing I can do it makes me feel powerful. Not to mention that a lot of us didn't get into pole dancing for fitness, or to practice an aerial art. A lot of us got into it because we felt like shit and heard that just maybe that by acting sexy we could be sexy, and by being sexy we could regain that lost confidence. Pole dance does WONDERS for a battered self esteem... I hear sometimes people will say, in reference to my being sexy, or acting sexy, or doing "naughty" things that I have less dignity. That I have such a low self esteem that I need to give so much of myself away for approval... that they don't need to be sexy to feel good about themselves. WELL. Gee. And what? Maybe I do need to be sexy to feel good about myself. There, I said it. Does that make me a bad person? A lesser person? Do I need to go to therapy because I like to dance around in my panties? Do I need to "get a life"? I just don't think so. Some people write bad poetry. Some people work 70 hours a week. Some people eat an entire gallon of ice cream in a single setting, and then throw it up. Me? I offer myself up as a "sex object".. because sometimes, sometimes, sometimes.. I'm tired of being a "real person". ... Again, this is me. Only me.
In hopes that no one would take what I said the wrong way, I decided to step way outside my comfort zone and do an entire day of just sexy practicing--or, what I think comes out sexy to me, I guess--and post a vid of it, awkward though it may feel to me to really flaunt. I had an excuse today because those damn 3 H's came together in the worst way for me and my hands were so sweaty and my pole was so slick I seriously couldn't do any tricks without feeling like I was about to kill myself, which is not my idea of fun. So, here's my first day of practice in 2010, an all out slinkfest, dedicated to you. I took some of what I thought was the best for this vid...I've got some comedy GOLD in outtakes though. I just might have to post some of those. 😂 I hope this proves I wasn't trying to judge anyone, just expressing the extent to which I have a difficult time with it myself and blush too easily. 😳 So here I lay prostrate before the forum. Be kind, I don't think I was built for sexiness. http://ver3.studioveena.com/lessons/view/2683 onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I tell my family it's for exercise and for fun. I don't mention "sexy" to them. Partly because I don't care to discuss that aspect of pole dance with them (it's my personal thing) and partly out of consideration (don't want to make them feel uncomfortable). I do think it is a shame that pole dancers feel they have to present pole dancing as strictly a fitness thing in order for it to be accepted, because it is so beautiful as an erotic art. But then again, I'm still not at a point where I'm fully comfortable letting loose and showing that side of myself to a whole bunch of people, even though I love watching and being inspired by others doing so. Who knows, maybe I'll get there someday soon 🙂 It exasperates me sometimes that people are so judgmental of pole dance. Even if the choreography is tame without any of the signature booty bounces or body waves, there are still going to be people who think it's scandalous, even though ballet can be just as sexual. So yeah, no point in trying to change it to please anyone but yourself, just take from it what you love. I do like to be an advocate of pole dance tho, so when people ask about it I tell them there are different styles of pole dance, giving cirque de soleil as an example, and I mention the efforts to make it an olympic sport. They're already familiar with the sexual aspect of pole dance so why go on about what they already know? If they don't find that part of it beautiful like I do it's their loss 😀
And yeah, I also agree with stellarmotion (and whoever else expressed so) that sex or sensuality shouldn't have to be synonymous with pole dance. A lot of times it's the more subtle choreography that really draws me in.
Great topic! First off I'd like to say that we should all be able to express our opinions as long we recognize they are just that: personal opinions. And I also think it's ok for us to get riled up if someone says something that really makes us think, that's the beauty of communication! If we only say the things we know no one will be "offended" by, we would have rather boring conversations! Debate is good! It means we care enough about something to get emotional about it. As long as we respect each other, I think there is space for many differing opinions here. You may have noticed my youtube channel is considerably different from my studio veena account and the issue of sexuality and pole dancing has a lot to do with that. On youtube, I only post videos in which i dance barefoot and in a minimum of shorts and a sportsbra. On studio veena, I post video anything I like! I think it is important to consider your audience. In my mind, pole dancing is an art. I tried pole dancing because I thought it was beautiful, not because it was sexy or acrobatic. However, the feeling of sensual energy and power I derive from it is indeed something I really enjoy! And I am proud of every acrobatic trick I can perform! The key for me is deciding who I am willing to share those different elements with. I want pole dancing to be recognized as an art. To be honest, I have no interest in pole dancing making it into the Olympics because to me, it isn't a sport. This has something to do with my dancing background, after all ballet has never been in the Olympics and it doesn't bother me one bit! But anyway, I choose to only share the sexual side of my dancing with an audience who I feel is able to see the artistry in the movement, hence why I only post sexy stuff on studio veena. It is important that we open the eyes of the public and I personally think this means taming down the sexual side of pole dancing, at least initially. Once it is recognized as art, we may be able to reintroduce the sexual elements. I have so many thoughts on this subject and I'm just not doing a good job of putting them into words 🙄 I think I will stop here for now. ~Fleur
Well said by all again! I personally don't think pole in it's current form needs to be in the olympics, either. When you think about it, there's just not a lot of standardization in the art form right now...it's still a developing art form, and it's still primarily an expressive art form. I think if pole does make it into the olympics, it will be in a form different to what we recognize as pole dancing right now. Even if it doesn't make it, I could see the development of a National Aerial Sports League or something like that with different divisions for pole and hoops and silks...all aerials! And having youth level designations and gyms all over...just like gymnastics or ballet. I think having a system like that might even allow for aerial sports to develop toward a more olympic-ish format. I don't think it's a bad idea to broaden the reach of aerial sports in general so that more people have access to it....the natural consequence of that is that there will be whole new different sexual and non-sexual approaches to pole, all of which I think could be lovely. I particularly would want to see what some really kickin' 10-15 y/os would come up with, because kids are so body aware I bet they could really show us some stuff if there were trained to the point of skill where they were coming up with their own moves, putting their own variations on them and etc. I definitely know a couple girls in that age range in my family who I think would come up with awesome pole routines if they were shown/could do the moves/were more familiar with pole etc. 🥂
You know, I was thinking about it...and I realized that I pole dance for many reasons. I pole dance because my friends at the time got into it too, and because we all decided to do it at the same time. Some have dropped off, and since I don't talk to any of them anymore, I don't know about the rest. I pole dance because I figured I needed something much more interesting than running, doing weights, or whatever else. They never held my interest and they never will. However, I think the very personal draw for me is that it's very..."against my nature," or what people seem to perceive as my nature. In life, I tend to be very...innocent? I don't know really how to describe it. Apparently, people just see me as cute and cuddly and not very sexual at all. Then I tell them I'm into Burlesque, and I have a pole in my living room that is my "complete home gym" as well as a great way to express myself. THEN they freak out! "What? YOU?" they ask me, all incredulous. "Yes, me." I answer, straight faced. I'm often amused, at this point, by the reactions I get when anyone hears about this from me, and they get all surprised! As I said before...sexuality is individual. We will attract other people that are of similar mind, because our individual sexuality is how we express what we want. Apparently, people expect that I am cute, innocent, and one of those "girl next door" girls, where I don't act like I want it, I just kind of lay back and enjoy whatever happens. In some ways, this is true, and some it's not. I'm not afraid of my body, or the bodies of others. If you looked at my favourite pictures on Deviantart, you'd see I like mostly three things: Space, animals, and naked ladies. I love the female form, it's all I draw (more or less) and it's a lovely piece of art, to me. It comes in many shapes and sizes, and all of them are wonderful. My body is my own, and it is female, and I'm okay with that (at least unless I'm having cramps!). I can run around naked, I can wear sexy things, I can do whatever I want, and the only restriction is that I live with roommates, one of whom is a heterosexual male, not my husband, and I don't think that would be appropriate. So, to wrap this all up...I pole dance to reach into another side of myself. A sexy, forward, personal, and secretive part of myself. A part that is happy being alone with herself. A part that doesn't care if I got an A on that research essay, or if people laugh at me because I tripped, or if I have nice hair that day. And I love that part of myself. 🥂
Hello, This is an interesting topic...one I have been avoiding because it brings up many emotions but a lot has been said that I really feel the need to respond to...that being said these are of course just my own personal opinions and I do LOVE the fact that we can discus all of this but since some things have been stated I really feel the need to respond. So to start on a light note I will say this Leading with the butt, in my opinion, is not the most endearing way to engage an audience, but that's just my feeling. um from a woman with a great ass I can fully state with all certainty..Leading with the butt is ALWAYS GOOD 😁 But really...I think it's irrational for us to ignore that pole dancing came from Strip Clubs and even more so for us to expect pole dancing IN strip clubs to be less sexual. The whole point of pole dancing in these clubs is not to be performance art, or to fulfill some sort of pole dancer fantasy or to get in a *great work out* or to be some sort of dance competition or sporting event, it's not for gay men or for that matter geared towards straight women, it is for the dancers at their work to make money for themselves and the club by enticing straight men to tip - buy drinks and lap dances - bring on the sexy I say!!! - it's a strip club and that's their environment 🙂 Last, I have to wonder sometimes, who are we trying to turn on? Most of the "whoos" you hear when a pole performer starts doing sexy floor dancing are straight females cheering for straight females. Right - Um Is there something wrong with this??? I believe that the most common type of pole dance enthusiast is the suburban housewife. And from what I can tell, most formal pole dance performances and competitions are primarily attended by other straight female pole dancers. Does it really serve anyone to go before an audience of unsuited and probably unavailable persons and act like we want to excite them sexually? And are we, as an audience, really doing this art and its highest calibre vanguards any service by encouraging them to use the same sexual dance style they use all the time? It's nice to encourage our friends, of course. But maybe we could encourage them to do something cool instead. Perhaps we can encourage them to break out of their comfort zones, which primarily contain average, common strip-club moves and facial expressions to match. What's wrong with encouraging them if they want to dance sexy...nobody is holding a gun to their head - that's their choice - dance is an expression - gymnastics is a "sport" that has very regimented standards - this is dance. Also I can tell you that for lots of "suburban housewives" just actually starting to pole dance or taking a pole class is already WAY out of their comfort zone and for a good deal of women the whole reason they got into pole dancing was to break out of their comfort zone, to feel good about themselves and embrace their sexuality which many women "misplace" on a day to day basis. Their classes are safe environments to express those feelings without having to please others. It's for themselves. Not everyone started pole dancing for sport or art. Heterosexual women being sexy for each other and pretending to be excited about it makes me giggle a little. funny I don't think they are "pretending" and this actually makes me really proud! Again I feel that people tend to think that pole dancing needs to be ONE thing. To some it's more of a performance art. To thousands of women it is an escape valve. I respect all forms of pole dancing - athletic in sneakers, sexual in strip, erotic in a personal way, Chinese pole etc. but I think it's when we try to label it is when we get in trouble. I think that people should just enjoy it and let it be. I got into pole dancing because a friend started class, got a pole and I thought it was HOT!!! Also as an ex gymnast I thought...oh wow what a cool way to incorporate gymnastics, dance and sexuality HOT 😀 ! Everyone just dance the way YOU want to dance...dance the way YOU feel - be authentic to YOUR self - because I'm going to and..........I'm leading with the butt 😉
Oh David -- you stirred up some folks with this one!! 😀 Last, I have to wonder sometimes, who are we trying to turn on? Most of the "whoos" you hear when a pole performer starts doing sexy floor dancing are straight females cheering for straight females. I believe that the most common type of pole dance enthusiast is the suburban housewife. And from what I can tell, most formal pole dance performances and competitions are primarily attended by other straight female pole dancers. Does it really serve anyone to go before an audience of unsuited and probably unavailable persons and act like we want to excite them sexually? And are we, as an audience, really doing this art and its highest calibre vanguards any service by encouraging them to use the same sexual dance style they use all the time? It's nice to encourage our friends, of course. But maybe we could encourage them to do something cool instead. Perhaps we can encourage them to break out of their comfort zones, which primarily contain average, common strip-club moves and facial expressions to match. Leading with the butt, in my opinion, is not the most endearing way to engage an audience, but that's just my feeling. I'm sure there are some audience members who would enjoy being approached butt-first by the performers. But still. Heterosexual women being sexy for each other and pretending to be excited about it makes me giggle a little. You see, I want a place where I, an urban housewife and pole enthusiast, can performed in front of an audience. I prefer them to be "unavailable" so that my performance in no way makes them feel entitled to get anything else out of me. I think your post shows a lack of understanding of female sexuality. You're a guy, you think like a guy. That's cool! 😀 But many women have a much broader sense of sexuality. Also, I think for many women, the "turn-on" is just as much fun as the actual sex. So the heterosexual woman performing and/or watching MAY, in fact, feel turned on, even though she doesn't have any intent of doing anything. Also, for many women, performing "average, common strip-club moves and facial expressions" is VERY much out of their comfort zone and is very cool. So, if you giggle, do it very quietly, or wait till you get home. Sex is a bigger deal for women than men -- and I mean that in a strictly biological way. Although there are effective means of birth control now, every act of intercourse carries with it the huge risk of pregnancy (and disease). For our ancestors, pregnancy meant a significant risk of death. So, I believe, our pleasure systems grew to be much broader. I want to be able to share my sexual/sensual power with others in a good, safe way. For mean, this means display only. I appreciate the artistic side as well, and I totally agree w/ you about dancing to "different" types of songs. I think, for me, though that merging what ever emotion a song speaks to me and sexuality is magic and fun! Because sometimes, sex is silly, or sad, or animalistic, or whatever! To EVERYONE posting on this thread -- THANK YOU!!! It really gives me a lot to think about. Mindy
Fantastic topic... and obviously very controversial... Not sure if it's been brought up yet, but im gunna talk about stripping and its connection to sexuality in dancing.... I feel sad when women say they dont feel comfortable expressing their sexuality and sensuality, especially when dancing.... its not their fault ofcourse because its prob just a result of centuries of a male dominated world determining social norms and values for women, and projecting their own insecurities and judgments onto womens self-image. Call it sexual repression. The double standard. They want a whore in the bedroom but a buttoned up goody-two-shoes at the dinner party. For me, one of the major attractions of pole dancing has always been the dancer's attitude; the proud and confident expression of female sexuality. Maybe it's the exhibitionist or egoist in me, but Im proud of my fitness, proud of my skills, proud of my body, so i naturally love to show it off to people. Dancing, as other members have written, is such a beautiful, natural way to totally succumb to your physical instincts, to let go of the nervous, neurotic encumbrances of the mind and just BE. Its so freeing to allow ur body to take over, so that all your emotions can be authentically expressed, explored, released. Its therapeutic. In so saying, I also love just as much to dance by myself, for myself. And even then I enjoy being sensual and sexual... I think it's so important to be able to find yourself attractive... you cant base ur self-image on what others think of you. It is irrational to try and deny that pole dancing did not originate in strip clubs, and that it is not essentially tied to the sex industry. I dont feel that this connection between pole dancing and stripping somehow lessens the value of it. And, it is my personal opinion that it is irrational to automatically demote the entire sex industry as anti-feminist, degrading, and dirty. Ive never seen how a man being willing to pay you handsomely for the privilege of seeing you naked is anything but complimentary. Being appreciated for her body does not devalue the woman's other qualities. As long as she is aware of her own value which exceeds her tits and ass (ie; her mind, personality, her other skills etc) then why not take the money, flash the guy some skin, and say "Thankyou very much". Im about to commence a career as a stripper. To me its a logical evolution... I need a job but i dont want to work my butt off waitressing long hours only to be payed the minimum wage. I adore pole dancing and im good at it, I love nudity and think that the female body should be revealed in all its glory more often... so why not get payed a fortune for doing something i love? When friends react badly to the news of my future aspirations, I am more dissappointed in them than they are in me.... it depresses me to encounter narrow-minded and dogmatic views in those i care for... ppl are shocked or embarrassed just because stripping is a social taboo, because working in the sex industry is transgressing some kind of unwritten rule... do they honestly think that how i earn my money is going to tarnish or lessen who i am? Some have said "This isnt you" which makes me sad... the image of me that they had in their heads isnt realistic. I am who I am, and I do what I want to do, and I refuse to limit my options or live my life according to popular opinion or socially-accepted norms. Does anyone get what im trying to say? Would love to hear feedback from you, as long as its intelligent - not a blistering bitter and negative diatribe to vent your own neurotic insecurities... Ciao 😉
Scarlett, I agree and disagree with you. The only point I disagree with you on is this idea that it's such a "man's world" and that all they want is a tiger in the bedroom, and a 50's housewife for dinner. My husband isn't like this, and I know quite a few other men that aren't, too. Perhaps I've just found the exceptions, and men abroad are actually like that...but this would make me sad. Otherwise, I think that if you truly love the idea of showing your body to others, pole dancing and floor dancing, making up performances, and you don't feel that this reflects badly on yourself (because I know some people would think it does) then I say...go for it! I know a woman who is a mother of two, a devoted wife, and her life and livelihood is Burlesque. That is, the art of slowly, teasingly taking off your clothing, ending usually in a pair of pasties and a thong. Curiously, burlesque is seen as the "classy" version of stripping, allowing women of all shapes and sizes to flaunt it for an audience of screaming, happy people. I assume this is because you can choose how much or how little you want to take off, as well as if you want to do it funny, or sexy/serious. However, Burlesque was actually tied to the sex industry, way back when, and many women were arrested for stripping on stage in this manner. Most of them were up their, flaunting their wares, because how they got their money and their life is by attracting men, and getting said men to buy them things. I thought it was interesting! I always love to find women who are so in love with their own bodies that they would like to share them, however they choose to do so. Many women will pose nude for pictures, some will get into Burlesque...and some just run around nude in their homes! I would only say...be careful, because most of the time, strippers are encouraged...well, more like it's almost mandatory to do lap dancing in order to make money. You sell the lapdances, you make the money. I, personally wouldn't be comfortable (or very good) with this, but if you think you can do it...I say go for it! 🥂
Hi Runemist, thanks for the reply. Yes i agree - im not so sure about the possible requirement for lap-dancing.... a policy of no-touching would suit me much better.... but im prepared to to give it a go and see what i can handle and what i cant. Im not going to push myself to do anything i dont like. Thats one of the main reasons i want to give it ago, coz i feel like stripping is a great opportunity if utilized properly etc... and my attitude is kind of: well if i can, i should try.... huh u were right to call me up on the slight sterotyping of men.... i actually dont have that much experience of men in romantic relationships myself... im only 21 and ive always been single - just never met a guy i liked enough to date more than once or twice 😛 I guess when i said "a male dominated world" i was referring more to history... it has been in the past but i think women r finally beginning to be treated like equals... and seen as more than just our bodies, and more than just domestic house-wives.... I hope that most guys are like the guys uve been lucky enough to have relationships with.... heres hoping... anyhoo thanks for the chat 🙂 love scarlett x
Hello, friends. (and many of you I really do consider to be friends.) Forgive me if any of this isn't expressed correctly, as I'm presently somewhat intoxicated. I will not blame any of my sentiments on intoxicants, but merely the expression thereof. But let me make it perfectly clear I offer no apology of any kind for anything previously stated. I do not take offense to having the information I present challenged, as I am not emotionally connected to it. I also do not take offense to having the opinions expressed in my entries challenged, as I acknowledge these are only personal opinions and not universally adopted ideologies. I want to start by simply reiterating some points I've already made. I hate to be redundant, but in this situation I feel that repeating specific ideas that I've already shared may be appropriate. 1.) I do not eschew sexuality in our beloved art of pole dancing. I merely feel that it is only one of many, one of countless dimensions that can be expressed through our artform. I wish to be able to express this dimension, but only as an adornment to polework, not as it's primary or only emphasis; and I wish to develop a multitude of other adornments as well that can run concurrent with it. 2.) Even though I recognise that pole dancing is not stripping, pole dancing is not prostitution, and stripping is not prostitution, I believe that all three of these activities are valid and that their practitioners deserve to be treated with respect, and deserve the opportunity to operate within their respective mediums without judgment, chastisement, or sanction, or the fear of any of these three being visited upon oneself. 3.) I do not believe that pole is inherently disconnected from the erotic, nor does it bear an inherent connection. Any artistic medium can be used to express erotic feelings, or any number of other feelings whether these be connection with sexuality or not. I believe art is a broad field, if that's not too exaggerated a form of understatement. It's breadth can absolutely expand to encompass sexuality. But if sexuality becomes a primary focus, art becomes contracted to express only one idea instead of expanded to express the full range of human emotion and experience. No reason is apparent to me that we should not treat this like any other form of dance, or to broaden the concept, any form of art, which can be used to express more than a multitude of different kinds of feelings, experiences, ideas, and attitudes. 4.) The comments I have made have been gender-neutral, not specifically addressed toward women. I am not applying one standard for women that is not being applied toward men, or vice-versa. In fact, I'm not applying any standards whatsoever. What I have done is to share a variety of observations and opinions, which are not specific toward members of one gender or another, or to any other specific group of persons. I have considered myself a feminist since my early teens, or maybe even before that. As such, I think it's significant to defend women's rights to be sexual and express sexuality, and that its equally important to defend women's rights to not be sexual or express sexuality when she doesn't feel like it. When I expressed feeling irritated by the dialogue between my friend and I at the Chinese restaurant, I was not feeling irritated because I was free to express sexuality. I was irritated because of the implied obligation to do so, and the limitations that are implied by such an obligation. I would not, in such a scenario, be "free" to express my sexuality at all; but rather, I would be expected to express sexuality. A look of wistfulness would be unacceptable, for only bedroom eyes would suffice. Finding a way to express remorse, anxiety, or jollity would be unacceptable, unless it could somehow be connected to sex. And when I purchased my X-pole, I had no intention of purchasing a shackle that would bind me to sex performance. I intended to buy the option of a new way to perform and further refine my performance of that, among a much broader range of other experiences. Sexuality was only a piece of the picture, and the picture was worlds larger. If I have somehow expressed that I place a value judgment on individuals who perform sexy dances, it has only been because I have communicated inaccurately. I have placed an aesthetic judgment on overtly sexual performances, and that judgment is this and nothing more: it is not my personal primary aesthetic preference. I can appreciate some of these performances, and I can respect the ones that I don't appreciate. They simply aren't my favorite. My previous posts on this thread have been efforts to condense and combine descriptions of my personal goals related to pole, my ideas about how pole is progressing as an artform and its potential, and my observations about the way pole tends to be treated. I would further like to reiterate that my previous posts and the language therein on this thread have been and remain gender-neutral, both in black-and-white text and more subtly by implication. Therefore, any experience or interpretation of chauvinism by the reader is purely his or her own projection. If you find it necessary to have someone to blame for this, I offer myself to wear that mantle. But I think that practicing ownership of ones own projected feelings might be a positive alternative to creating an artificial scapegoat. But if you're not there yet, you're not there; so deal with your feelings however you are able. Just please try to avoid treating those feelings as though they were mine, if you can. And if somehow you have gotten the feeling from my other entries on this thread that I find sexuality in pole unacceptable, all I can ask is that you reread them, because that feeling is simply inaccurate in contrast with what was actually said. I don't personally know the precise origin of pole as a medium upon which to execute a dance performance. And until a definitive history on the subject is published, this information will remain ambiguous. I have a personal suspicion that pole performance and erotic performance existed separately before someone decided it would be "hot" to combine them, but I will confess unabashed that I really have no idea. I was left with the impression that Jenyne Butterfly was working on compiling that information, though I may have my facts skewed about that as well. But I remain unconvinced that erotic performers were the first to use pole. I believe that a dance pole is a piece of metal that extends upward from the floor, usually to the ceiling, but not always. However if its origins do lie in the strip joints, then perhaps we do not really have the right to express offense when our poles are called stripper poles. If strippers gave birth to the art we celebrate today, we owe them homage rather than disclaimers. With that I will now proceed to respond to comments made by specific individuals. Polergirl, I know just what you mean. Sometimes when I'm on the dancefloor of any bar or club and I'm genuinely feeling the music, and it combines with the attention of those dancing around me, there is a sexual energy that raises seemingly of its own accord. But I only feel it as it surfaces. I only permit it to express through me. Sometimes a pole is handy when this occurs, other times not, but either way, it's magnificent. And whether its sexual or not, when energy raises and expresses itself through me, it's always a wonderful experience. And I like your point of view. Amcut, even though you weren't responding specifically to me, I feel that some of your comments deserve being addressed. First let me say that if I had a teenager, I would not be embarrassed if he or she caught me watching one of your videos. I would invite a daughter to watch your video with me and use you as an example of one healthy way to express sexuality. I would invite a son to watch a video of yours and tell him that this is a powerful creature he is watching who was capable of exacting respect from him whether he volunteered it or not. If you felt personally criticised, know that I honour your dancing and your sexuality just the same. Unlike your own videos, I do not think that all sexual performances, whether on or off the pole, are executed in a tasteful way, but as I have stated before this is only a personal preference of an aesthetic nature, which has nothing to do with either sex or pole. Sometimes I get tired of being a "real person" too, and I agree that being a sex kitten is a great way to escape. It's an escape I use sometimes as well. Before I worked in a night club, I was a patron, and as a patron I would go dance and often remove a garment or two or three. And the positive attention I would receive was an absolute joy that would help motivate me along the rest of my week. Now, as nightclub staff, I still do some dancing and clothing removal. This is to motivate other patrons to come back and continue to spend their money, and also to motivate them to leave a larger number of larger quantity tips for myself and other staff members. In short, I am using sexuality to enhance my quality of life and that of others in a way that you express "got women by" for aeons past. As the world has continued to evolve, it has become more acceptable for men and women to exchange some roles. Women are now allowed to ogle and adore beautiful men, and men are allowed to seek security and comfort in women. Women are allowed to have careers and all kinds of independence, and men are allowed to set their careers aside to be fathers. Women are now allowed to don power suits and tell the boys what to do, and men are allowed to reach the pinnacle of physical beauty in terms of physique and fashion. Whatever biological roles are programmed in our respective chemistries, society seems now to have evolved, or at least to be in the process of evolving to a point where we as individuals can look past our chemical programming and just live however we may feel appropriate for ourselves, and I like this. I love knowing that either you or myself can be a corporate executive, a sex kitten, anywhere in between, or on both extremes of this spectrum. I do not side with those who feel that the world is going to hell in a handbasket. I think it's the nature of life to evolve, and that we, in our sexual expression and our highest ambitions alike, are merely making ourselves examples of this rule which we have not set, but rather, which life expresses through us seemingly of its own accord. The daily grind always comes back after we grant ourselves from real person-hood, but integration of seemingly opposite qualities is a goal I strive toward and admire when I observe in others. I love knowing that executives can be sexy, and that milfs can be professionals. We don't have to choose anymore, and that's beautiful to me. I can admit that sexuality has never come easily to me, but I have been enjoying its slow and progressive unfolding in recent years. Poledanceromance, I think you brought up a really interesting and majorly cool point when you mentioned that you would be interested in seeing what some 10-15 year olds could come up with if given adequate pole training. I think typically that it is this age group which vanguards most types of athletic work, especially those kinds which are related to pole such as cheerleading, gymnastics, tumbling, and dance, which essentially could be considered a single artform. My friend Linda recounts to me her days of being a gymnastics champion in her teens, who ended up quitting gymnastics one year when she found that many gymnasts several years her junior were performing at a level which she had not been trained to compete with. But this brings up a point of much interest for me, and that is the issue of personal shame in relationship both to pole and sexuality. If we genuinely do not feel shame about either sexual expression or pole, then there would be nothing inappropriate about introducing these (separately) to our children. Perhaps this could be an adequate gauge with regard to each of our own respective moral thermostats. Would I feel ashamed of myself if my child or someone elses child happened to witness me expressing myself through erotic movement, pole dance, or erotic movement on the pole? If so, then maybe I am not as comfortable in my own relationship to pole or to sexuality as I would like to fancy myself being in my fantasies of being a liberated sexual and/or athletic creature. Children only develop sexual shame by virtue of observation, after all. Repression and rebellion are two sides of the same coin, and it is a coin born at home, borne of observation, and observation specifically of our parents and other authority figures. In short, I think I like the way you think. Fleur, even if it seemed on the surface like our ideas were at odds, I think you and I are actually very much on the same page. I like that pole can be beautiful, sexy, athletic, and acrobatic; and I like that it can be one, a couple, or all of these at the same time, and that a multitude of other adjectives can be attached to specific performances depending on the performer's interpretation and execution of the movements employed and the music to which the movements are set. I like how you phrased your statement that you only share the "sexual side" of pole dancing with some and not all, because it implies that sexuality is only one side of a multifaceted cluster. But if I did not understand you correctly please feel free to alert me to my inaccuracy. Either way, I love pole as a means of expression, whether its sexuality being expressed or anything else. Honeyrose, I was interested in what you shared. In your first post on this thread, you stated that "as long as there are men on the planet, women will be judged." And in your follow-up post you cited only examples of women judging you, including your best friend and the instructor at your previous studio. I don't think this has to be about gender. Alpha male type men will judge men who are artistic, high-maintainence, or who attract rather than pursue. The latter class will criticise the alpha males, claiming that they are merely neanderthals, behind the times and setting us back as a gender. Reserved and conservative women will criticise women who are sexually autonomous, calling them loose or rebellious, while the latter class will dismiss the former as repressed, weak, or boring. Women's criticisms of men will typically encompass both of men's criticisms of one-another, and men's criticisms of women will encompass both of women's criticisms of one-another. Sadly, whatever we don't like in ourselves we project, and what we don't like in our environments we find someone to blame for. I actually enjoy the sentiment you expressed in both of your posts, I just don't think it has to be about gender. Verucablue, hello to you! I don't know if I'm in a minority who has a certain kind of preference in regard to how I'm approached, whether on an individual basis or by a performer. So I'm willing to acknowledge that my "leading with the butt" comment may have been out-of-turn, or based solely on an individual preference. But let's hypothetically say for example I had a bottle of wine and a nice conversation with a perfectly adorable guy and then invited him over. If he busted out some of the "sexy" moves that I have seen marketed as "fitness" previously, I would not be aroused; in fact the result would be quite the opposite I'm sure. Again, that's just aesthetic and entirely personal. I'm sure that the orifice-first approach excites a lot of people. I can say for certain though that I never expressed that pole dancing in a strip club should not be erotic. I do believe its possible for pole dancing to be a family event, but if I went into a strip club I would know what to expect. And if I didn't like what I saw I would fully own my own responsibility for choosing to go there. Maybe I should have been specific that I was not refering to pole dancing in strip clubs, but rather, in most other venues. I don't feel that I am "ignoring" anything, only acknowledging that pole dancing has ambiguous origins. No, there's nothing wrong with heterosexual women cheering for the sexy movement of other heterosexual women. I just find it very unusual, but I'm sure there's a perfectly reasonable sociological explanation for it that I just haven't come across yet. I have some theories, but I doubt their usefulness in this discussion. To answer your question, I think there is nothing "wrong" with encouraging others to be sexy. I respect that pole can expose many men and women to the floorwork which will create an expression for their latent, but potentially powerful sexuality. So after the cage is opened, do we continue to "liberate" the latent inner beast on a constant basis? If so, successful sexual liberation has only been achieved to a small degree. Because if pole floorwork is the only medium through which it can be expressed, and it has to be expressed through pole floorwork every time the pole is employed, it is intuitive that the individual in question has gotten stuck in the early stages of this sexual liberation and has not found ways to integrate it into his or her regular personality and daily life. I did not assume everyone started poling for sport or art. But I do think it is possible for all of us, regardless of which medium we have adopted to express ourselves through, to integrate all facets of that medium into our expression through it, and then integrate that expression into daily living. But perhaps I'm a fool to take a shamanistic attitude toward pole. And maybe we will never know either way. Mindy, I will confess that as I am neither female nor heterosexual, I have no direct personal experience of what it is like to possess the sexuality of either heterosexuals or females. So you might be correct, I may just not get it. What I can tell you is that I have a keen monitor that can tell me whether a woman or man is sexy or not at specific points in time. When I comment on videos here or on YouTube, I usually make it a point to let the poster know when her movement is sexy; and when I do make a point of that it is meant as a compliment and nothing more. But the actual "turn-on" factor is a different matter. I have great respect for sexy in many forms. But my turn-ons can tend to be specific as can my turn-offs. And maybe for women it's totally different, I honestly just don't know. That is my concession. I concede that I do not know whether I understand or not. I would like to imagine that male sexuality is more complicated than many females and the pop-psychological establishment would like to believe, but truthfully I don't know that either. I do know that I don't intend to act on my feelings every time I am sexually excited, and I do trust that the vast majority of male and female exotic dancers do not act on their sexual feelings (assuming these feelings are not feigned). I trust that patrons at exotic dance establishments are buying the fantasy of an experience, as opposed to the experience itself. I suspect that a prostitute that always acted on his or her aesthetic preferences would rarely if ever earn any money, because more than nine out of ten clients would be turned away. So I really do get it when you're talking about having the feeling of being sexy being possibly carrying more weight than the experience of having sex. I do not feel that a dancer should refrain from expressing sexual feelings and if I have implied that I feel that way in earlier posts, then I either miscommunicated, or have been misinterpreted, or perhaps some combination of these. But I like diversity. We can have sex and candy, sex and coffee, sex and wine, sex and dinner, sex and cigarettes, or sex and anything else. But to me, diversity is not present unless sex is only making a cameo. If you hear that David C. Owen will be giving a performance and you feel confident that its going to be sexy, even though perhaps I should feel flattered by that assumption, I am more likely to feel flat, one-dimensional, and predictable. I believe that sexuality emerges spontaneously, and that when it does, it is beautiful. But I also feel that if it emerges constantly, it is no longer spontaneous, but a routine, common, and ordinary thing. But then again, I guess that even the ordinary can be beautiful depending on the perspective an individual carries. Let me express here that II can see how my "giggle" comment may have been inappropriate and if there were any part of any of my writings on this thread that I were going to take back, it would be that one. I really don't want to be a person that laughs at others, and by making that comment I publicly revealed one of my shortcomings. By the way, I began to reply to your last e-mail and got stuck. I'll probably send an e-mail along to you with my birth data very soon, but will continue your interpretation when the inspiration comes. I'm having a personal dry spell at this point in time both sexually and astrologically. Maybe that is reflected in some of the perspectives that I have shared. Hi, Scarletthoney. I think it is ambiguous whether the origins of performance on a pole can be found in strip joints or not, but let us assume that it was for a moment. Could this piece of vertical metal not be used for other purposes just because of its origin? Obviously it has been and continues to be used for purposes of erotic entertainment, and I think there is nothing whatsoever wrong with that. But it is equally obvious that not all strippers are pole dancers, and that not all pole dancers are strippers. Items and ideas are used in ways that defy their respective origins all the time. Could that not be true of pole as well? I am not attacking stripping, sex, or sexuality; I am just challenging the idea that these and pole are innately synonymous. And Runemist! I just want to express that it's been really cool to watch your responses through this thread. You've had feelings you've expressed clearly and kindly, and haven't reacted angrily or defensively to anyone's comments. I think that is a mark of great confidence and personal fortitude. Your neutrality is refreshing, and much appreciated by the guy with the unpopular opinions. 🌸
Stellar.....you are drunk when you write this? It is poetry, philosophy, reflection, interaction. It's wonderful. Thank you.
In regards to the history of pole dance. Although in most common form that we practice it prob immediately dates back to when they had the whole traveling shows and the pole in the middle of the tent got incorperated, but that view doesn't take into account chinese pole (which although different is a form of pole dance, though some argue it is more acrobatic than dance there still are dance elements, like with Remi Martin or that pole tango video that was posted a while back) Some people think that going way way back centuries that pole might have come from Mallakhamb http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7MUjFliBNk which requires men to preform a series of yoga positions in a set amount of time on a slightly conical pole that has been coated in oil (I assume to reduce the chance of splinters etc). They also do it on rope. http://mallkhamb-ape.tripod.com/mallakhamb.htm I'm not a historian, I don't know if it is related to the pole we practice or if it is like convergent evolution (sorry I'm a Bio major, I'm not try to push any theroies of life etc) and looks very similar because, duh, its movement on a pole and no other similarities.
I want to let you all know I'm so pleased with the spirit in which we have all discussed a touchy subject!! Its a rare thing to find on a forum.....its very refreshing to see adults behaving like...well... adults 🥂 I loved reading all your points of view. HUZ to you all 🥂 🥂 I'll keep mine short.......I love ALL aspects of pole dancing, the dirty, the sensual, the sporty, the aerial, and heartfelt emotional!!! Finding this incredibly diverse art form has been wonderful for my spirit. I have always love music, and have felt a need/desire to express it...(I play many instruments, sing and did some figure skating back in the day) but non of those forms of musical expression have ever really "done it" for me. I have found my "thing" I discovered both Pole Dancing and Dance at about the same time. When I watch dancing, not just pole, but any style and any form, it takes me to another place in my mind, so much more emotional then I had ever thought I could be!! I cry all the time over music I hear on the radio and performances I see on YT or TV! I am not a crier mind you!! 😂 Its wonderful what this world of dance has done TO me, I only wish I had experienced this all sooner in my life. I hope the "dance" is never taken away from the ART that is pole, now THAT would be something to cry about! 🌸
Sabrina, well, I DID have to hit backspace like 83927 times! Haha! And actually I think I may have gone from drunken to buzzed over the course of writing that post. But thank you for reading it, I know it was long. And thanks for expressing your appreciation! FreeTheSun, thank you, thank you, THANK YOU! I am incredibly interested in what you have shared. I appreciate that you were able to contribute some information that was not at my disposal. Even though I suppose its possible that pole as we know it presently was the idea of a strip-club proprietor, it's nice to hear alternatives regarding where it may have originated from. Whether our pole's origin originates in stripping or not would not change my feelings about it, but when information surfaces that encourages us to question information which is innately questionable, it's always a boon. Veena, I get so emotional about music and dance too! I didn't know you were a musician yourself, so it was cool to learn something new about you. I too wish I had been introduced to pole (and musicianship!) at a younger age. And music/dance seems anymore to be among the only things powerful enough to induce tears in my eyes. I hope that dance and pole always stay compatible too.
I guess that being not sexual has been drilled into my head. I have a very professional job and anytime anyone is remotely sexy, someone calls it out and makes a big deal out of it. My coworkers know I pole and some of them will ask about new moves which ALWAYS leads to a discussion about strippers and stripclubs and lapdances and people get all giggly and weird. Why is it weird? Also, they sometimes act like you can't be sexy at all in order to be a professional person. My husband even does the same and, yes, I have sex with him. For example, being in pole class has taught me to carry myself in a more sexy way and the other day I came down the steps with a hand on my hip and he was like, "whoa! what's up with the sexy walk?" I had no idea I was doing it but I felt embarrassed to the point where I stopped. It's like I have two lives. One where I'm not sexy around other people and one where I'm sexy only around myself. That's crap. I'm going to work to be more sexy everywhere I go.
Carrie, I think perhaps your husband was...not expecting the "sexy walk" but I doubt he meant for you to stop! I once went for a photoshoot with a friend of mine, who did up all my makeup...and when I went home, my husband asked me "What happened to your face?" I teased him for ages afterward! 😈 I think that "professionalism" has become synonymous with "robotic," and I don't agree with that. Also, most people recognize sexuality as something...passionate, close, and something people connect through. So, perhaps they just don't see how these things can go together? I would think that if you kept doing it, though, they would eventually just get used to it. You can even try to steer the conversation away from strippers and whatnot if you like, or even tell them you don't feel that you want your dancing to be associated with that topic. Honesty is always the best policy, but sometimes people forget that. I think that husbands always appreciate when we're being sexy...they just don't know how to express it! 🤔 🐱
